Some mechanics change

Do you agree it?

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  • all agree
  • al disagree

0 voters

I want for some changes in H3 mechanics

  1. Mana - Knowlege per turn (not 1 per turn). For mysticism - 15/23/35 per cent

2.Morale and Luck 10% per point (not 1/21 per point)

  1. First Aid with skill can ressurect warriors

  2. Resistance 15/30/45 per cent (not 10/20/30)

  3. Navigation can save 20/40/60 per cent MP from water to ground (or from ground to water)

  4. Changes in Spells (Armageddon to 5th level, Magic Mirror to 4th< and mass on exprext, changes in Ice Bolt tho make it different from lightning, and in ring of ice to be different damage from fireball)

  5. No Wisdom (Magic plays Wisdom role) and Learning gives primary skill for 4/3/2 levels of hero

It all can be easily done by mods.

BTW, is there any mod support in current version of VCMI?

It looks like you have played Heroes V a lot.
1)If you mean to make mana regeneration rate dependent on knowledge, then I am not against it. (but 35% on expert mysticism too much as for me).

5 & 7)looks a bit interesting, but will change game balance too much.

6)this four spells already quite different - they are from different schools of magic, ring of ice does not affect center tile. I am against such changes.

Not all comes from HoMM V

  1. Dependence on Knowlege from V, but skill from WoG
  2. From IV and V
  3. From WoG and V
  4. My idea
  5. From Equilibris and V
  6. I have done all changes in spells, you can test it (sptrairts included in attachment)
  7. 1 - from V and IV, 2 - From WoG

For Skill System - I want HMM IV-V system (For example logistics (3lvl) have pathfinding(3lvl), navigation(3lvl), scouting(3lvl) and fraction skill for each fraction(1lvl))
Fraction skill must be a spell-like ability, but must used without mana.

Do you have your own requests?

Yes, I think that mana regeneration must be depend on Knowlege! (8.16 KB)

Replace 3 with 5 and you’ve got Heroes 4. System in H5 is IMO better (Skills have 3 lvl, perks has 1 lvl)

This is much better system then in H3. But such skill system should be possible only as mod.
As well as such changes in spells.

I think that in VCMI could be (but not “should be”) included only those changes, that will fix balance (like your Armageddon and Mirror suggestions) or replacing useless skill (like your Mysticism - 4 mana/day when you have 500 is useless)

Everything else should be as mod.

Yes. Balance Changes from my:

I think. Do you agree?

Yes. Balance Changes from my:

  1. (in h3 unusable, when you have over 150 mana)
  2. (Luck skill almost unusable now)
  3. (Tent unusable on low-level-units)
  4. (against mages on Week 10-12)
  5. (Navigation unusable when you want to cross the sea, Town portal or Fly is better)
  6. (translate and you got all changes - for all unusable spells -1lvl, but for usable+lvl)

I think. Do you agree?

Vcmi is an engine so IMHO it should allow to change things you describe in a txt file but not change them by itself. Unless Vcmi becomes more then engine … but still even then changing balance is a tricky thing

. as far balancing goes you consider one thing but forget about the whole picture …

First luck and morale are fine as it is in HoMM3 … The key here is it sometimes trigers … What you propose though would make this game totally random and considering how crucial for example a second move is it would spoil the balance … I don’t like how it works in h5 where you can have 50% luck … The key here is that while luck bonus and morale bonus is very powerful you get it rarely… I mean is it normal to be lucky 50% of moves ? IMHO no …

Same goes for other things… You go to change skills but disregard many of the skills that are way worse then those you mention … For example learning is the WORST of all skills as it gives you nothing. You also forget about most inbalanced elements of this game Fly and DD… Those spells should be removed.

As far as that goes sometime ago I had thought everything over and the best thing to do as far as skills in h3 goes is combining together some of the weaker ones and changing a bit of those numbers…

I agree with Wisdom + Magic … Wizards have way to hard life … Magic guilds should also be cheaper, That’s another story but I also have an ready solution for spell schools (spell level changes)

I disagree with this. For adventure spells: take its realisation from h5 (in every guild on 4th and 5th level. But not change effect! It is imbalance only if depend on magic school! If it can be learned by EVERY hero on level 20, it is not imbalance)

For 2. I think for Luck. morale in HoMM3 is good. But to be lucky more often - will be balanced…
for 5 - by percent (bonus cannot be received), how it is in homm4 equilibris.
for Mysticism - I think, the mana restoration ust depend on Knowlege!
For eagle eve -agree, but learning: I like, how it is realized in Wog
Diplomacy - I do not use it, and then agree…
For resistance: on Month 3 mages is VERY powerful, much as warriors.

Do you take mockups from Touranment Edition?

maybe add 4 to 7 levels of luck and -1 to -3 levels of luck (the unluckie)
and add 4 to 7 and -4 to -7 levels of morale?

It is imbalance because it makes it possible to pass strong guards on the map and go against the will of mapmaker …

In h5 Instant Travel is banned on MP … In h3 DD and Fly are banned on MP … and Multiplayer guys know the best about game balance :wink:

Nope those are my own mockups not from WoG-TE

Anyway as I said VCMI is an engine not a game so IMHO it should allow to customize those things in txt files … or by ERM or LUA scripts if the effect you want to have is more advanced .

At least at this point it’s just an engine, and it doesn’t seem it will become somthing more in the not distant future.

Well I usually end my games in one month time … Playing M sized 2 player maps from TournamentOFHonor… Anyway on MP mages are weak (since the 4 level specialists are banned)

But I like to plays Hotseat XL maps:) And dislike rush:)

For DD and Fly - it will be possible to make battle after pickup an artifact behind guards:) But on XL without these spells plays with 8 heroes (and Kyrre with expert logistics also!) impossible to control map. The spells must be depends on size.

It is possible … I’ve played maps like that (no DD Fly, TP) … It takes time … is harder and you must use many heroes…

Try to play a XL map without DD, Fly and log specialist (and without TownPortal too )… You will find it more enjoyable and harder. Really using 5x DD and log specialists feels like playing on cheats :slight_smile:

BTW Kyrre and all logistic specialists are also banned on MP…


BTW My point was many maps are based on so called zones, where it takes you deafeat for example 10 devils to get to a zone with places, other monsters artifacts etc. With Fly or DD or Instant Travel you can pass that guard and just get to the zone. The same goes for maps where mapmaker intentionally puts a garnison with forces at one point to for example prevent players rushing towards each others. With Fly or DD you can cross that easly

In such case fly and DD are disabled by mapmaker. Pretty obvious and common on multiplayer maps I know. No need to remove it by force.

All SoD maps have disabled Fly and DD which means even 3do understood the error they made.
though they did poor on solving it since on those maps you can still get Angel Wings for example :stuck_out_tongue:

BTW Warmonger it will be not disabled if the map is a random map so there is a need… Furthermore those speels are like cheats I don’t see a reason to have something in game that imbalances 99% of maps …

@ ral_il_an : As Warmonger said, anything can be done by mods. As VCMI is Open Source, anybody who has the knowledge and likes one of your proposals will be free to create a mod/script for it. But that of course, not before VCMI is ready to accept mods. And if my understanding is correct, that will only happen after we have a final, bug-free replica of the original H3 game. Some minor tweaks & features may be implemented before, but only things that do not actually alter the gameplay (e.g.: Stack Queue in battle - it was not in H3, but having it does not affect the outcome of battles as not creature/hero/magic properties were changed).

Once the devs will finish recreating the original H3, their second objective (if I’m not mistaken), will be to implement the latest WoG version into VCMI (be that 3.59 already, or still 3.58f+S.Upd). In that phase they will probably also create support for other mods as well (to answer also Warmonger - but again, that’s just my understanding, the devs will correct me if necessary).

So yeah, you can be sure that in the end you’ll be able to resurrect troops with First Aid Tent, because all the WoG tweaks will eventually make their way into VCMI. About the other suggestions, they all seem like good ideas. But to avoid any confusion - we can discuss about them (it’s very good that we do), but it doesn’t mean somebody will start working on them already.

@ Warmonger : The devs may have to correct me if otherwise, but I think there is no mod support yet. The way I see things, it doesn’t sound like a good idea to have mod support before the basic game is ready (many basic elements are not yet supported, plus they may still change parts of the code from one dev release to another that might make it incompatible with a user mode, and the project might get delayed too much if we’d start working on this incompatibilities)

@ val-gaav : In WoG, Fly & DD can be disabled by default from the WoG options. That means we’ll have the same in VCMI once WoG is integrated, so I don’t think we need to worry much about this aspect.

No, there is no mod support in VCMI (although you can customize it quite easily via files in config folder).

These changes just change the balance of the game so I think it should be rather a wishlist for future modding support.

Actually we are going to provide basic mod support earlier since it won’t be very hard to implement. I think first mods should be made once VCMI is playable. This will surely happen before impleneting all Heroes III features and removing all bugs.

Yes, that’s what should be done before mod support is ready.

In fact, we recreate Heroes III: WoG but we focus on features present in SoD. Notice that we support WoG creatures but implementation of more sophisticated elements is postponed.

Bah, that’s essential. All the people start from modifying existing files sooner than creating own separate mods.
How do you actually predict the mod support? Menu with browser which enables/disables them or just simple mods folder as in H5?

I don’t know how it’s made in H5 but I think in VCMI it will be something like “download a file with mod, put it in an appropriate folder, before running a game select one of installed mods”. Unfortunately, it will interfere with ERM scripting options… we’ll have to think how to resolve this problem.

I think to do separate wog-erm options and separate choosable mods for vcmi which could contain scripts in erm/lua/python even mixed