Abyss Town revived!

Updated with misiokles’ tweaks and bugfixes and new namechanges.

I think it’s hight time to talk about heroes balance. So far we have:

Abiss:
Might hero
Speciality: Abysall Crabs
Army:
slot 1 - level 2 creature, min : 6, max : 9
slot 2 - level 2 creature, min : 6, max : 9
slot 3 - level 2 creature, min : 6, max : 9
Skills: Advanced scouting

Arkana:
Magic Hero
spellbook : teleport
Speciality: Scouting
Army:
slot 1 - level 1 creature, min : 10, max : 15
slot 2 - level 2 creature, min : 6, max : 9
slot 3 - level 3 creature, min : 4, max : 6
Skills: Basic scouting, basic tactics

Dissana:
Magic Hero
spellbook : Land mine
Speciality: Land mine
Army:
slot 1 - level 1 creature, min : 10, max : 15
slot 2 - level 2 creature, min : 6, max : 9
slot 3 - level 3 creature, min : 4, max : 6
Skills: Basic wisdom, basic misticism

Gril
Magic Hero
spellbook : Chain Lightning
Speciality: Chain Lightning
Army:
slot 1 - level 1 creature, min : 10, max : 15
slot 2 - level 2 creature, min : 6, max : 9
slot 3 - level 3 creature, min : 4, max : 6
Skills: Basic air magic, basic luck

Karnti
Magic Hero
spellbook : Sorcery
Speciality: Sorcery
Army:
slot 1 - level 1 creature, min : 10, max : 15
slot 2 - level 2 creature, min : 6, max : 9
slot 3 - level 3 creature, min : 4, max : 6
Skills: Basic wisdom, basic sorcery

Kasta
Might hero
Speciality: +350 gold
Army:
slot 1 - level 1 creature, min : 10, max : 15
slot 2 - level 2 creature, min : 6, max : 9
slot 3 - level 3 creature, min : 4, max : 6
Skills: Basic tactics, basic armorer

Kingsax
Magic Hero
spellbook : none
Speciality: Intelligence
Army:
slot 1 - level 1 creature, min : 10, max : 15
slot 2 - level 2 creature, min : 6, max : 9
slot 3 - level 3 creature, min : 4, max : 6
Skills: advanced wisdom

Kraken Teamster
Might hero
Speciality: Giant Octopus
Army:
slot 1 - level 1 creature, min : 10, max : 12
slot 2 - level 2 creature, min : 5, max : 6
Skills: advanced wisdom

Pears
Might hero
Speciality: Armorer
Army:
slot 1 - level 1 creature, min : 10, max : 15
slot 2 - level 2 creature, min : 6, max : 9
slot 3 - level 2 creature, min : 6, max : 9
Skills: Basic tactics, basic armorer

Perha
Magic Hero
spellbook : berserk
Speciality: berserk
Army:
slot 1 - level 1 creature, min : 10, max : 15
slot 2 - level 2 creature, min : 6, max : 9
slot 3 - level 3 creature, min : 4, max : 6
Skills: basic wisdom, basic water magic

Raytlii
Might hero
Speciality: Jellyfish
Army:
slot 1 - level 1 creature, min : 10, max : 15
slot 2 - level 2 creature, min : 6, max : 9
Skills: advanced wisdom

Season:
Might hero
Speciality: Yuan-Ti
Army:
slot 1 - level 1 creature, min : 10, max : 15
slot 2 - level 2 creature, min : 6, max : 9
slot 3 - level 3 creature, min : 4, max : 6
Skills: basic diplomance, basic resistance

Sirranna:
Magic Hero
spellbook : weakness
Speciality: +1 gem/day
Army:
slot 1 - level 1 creature, min : 10, max : 15
slot 2 - level 2 creature, min : 6, max : 9
slot 3 - level 3 creature, min : 4, max : 6
Skills: basic wisdom, basic pathfinding

Trila
Might hero
Speciality: Armorer
Army:
slot 1 - level 1 creature, min : 10, max : 15
slot 2 - level 2 creature, min : 6, max : 9
slot 3 - level 2 creature, min : 6, max : 9
Skills: Basic tactics, basic armorer

Verna
Might hero
Speciality: Giant Gold Seahorses (?)
Army:
slot 1 - level 1 creature, min : 10, max : 15
slot 2 - level 2 creature, min : 6, max : 9
slot 3 - level 2 creature, min : 6, max : 9
Skills: Basic wisdom, basic air magic
speciality: haste (???)

Well
Magic Hero
spellbook : Ressurrection
Speciality: Ressurection
Army:
slot 1 - level 1 creature, min : 10, max : 15
slot 2 - level 2 creature, min : 6, max : 9
slot 3 - level 3 creature, min : 4, max : 6
Skills: basic wisdom, basic water magic

Werser
Might hero
Speciality: Hyppocamph
Army:
slot 1 - level 3 creature, min : 3, max : 6
slot 2 - level 3 creature, min : 2, max : 4
slot 3 - level 3 creature, min : 1, max : 3
Skills: Basic diplomacy, basic resistance

Not lots of water, isn’t it? Any ideas to improve?

I highly agree. I also see little point in having two armourer heroes, especially of the same class. I am terrible at balance but I think the resurrection hero could get a power change along with one armourer. The resurrection one due to the spell not being very “abyssey”, in my opinion.

Update! Removed a line of internal text causing problems, changed some building descriptions (sea urchins are still WiP), changed a few possible town names that didn’t quite sound underwatery enough.

No big hero changes done yet as I want feedback before touching those.

Nobody reporting the fact that the mod isn’t working at all right now? I have noticed that editing files is extremely finicky and frail at times and will create problems for no other reasons than to cause grief. Heck, I tried to change the Bastion hero descriptions to proper english once and all heroes except one became unavailable.

I need people to help locating the problem.

Use Notepad++ to work on json files (it has syntax highlight and lights opening-closing (]) etc, it correctly works with unicode files).
If you have suspicions that somewhere in json file there are errors, you can use online json validator to check (just copy and paste contents of json to web form and press validate:

jsonlint.com/

The only bad thing is that it thinks comments (// text) are errors. So remove all commentaries before validation.

JSON doesn’t support comments so it’s valid behaviour.

Maybe, but VCMI supports:-)

JSON in VCMI closer to JSON5 (proposed extension).

Problem fixed! It was a hero description. Thank Poseidon it wasn’t some tiny word somewhere in the bigger files. Teaches me for not testing enough! I figured out how to find the problem while at work, but thanks for the heads-up!

By the power of awesome, misiokles also restored the old “abyssal murloc” (now dark one) as a neutral creature along with it’s and the original murloc (now deep one’s) dwelling. He is a cool dude like that. The both of them may get a power boost later to tier 3 to fit the new name better. This however, comes hand in hand with something important we need to discuss:

Balance.

We really need a discussion going on unit, hero and even building balance (getting tier 6 and 7 is way too easy). This is what makes or breaks a faction afterall.

if I don’t forget I will test the town today and suggest some possible ways to improve balance

Where the hell did you get these from. Jellyfish and Octopus are common words in English and in bestiary in general. Also it’s clear that both creatures are Jellyfish / Octopus and not something else.

Large number of H3 creatures are actually taken from D&D, like Basilisk, Gorgon or Beholder. So Yuan-Ti is a perfect match. Also, it DOES look like Yuan-Ti. Merrow is a word for Mermaid, not snake.

I get them from the English language, why thank you! :smiley:

The floating spire/sceptre is a placeholder name. I was incredibly confused when the jellyfish started shooting bolts of magic for no reason, so I wanted a name that explain it as a special type of jellyfish. Jellyfish, as explained prior, is extremely generic and dull (not to mention one of the english language’s silliest words) so I wanted to spice it up. If anyone knows of some odd creature name that fits and sounds cooler, sure, I will go for that. Same goes if jellyfish gets voted back in by a larger crowd.

The octopus is clearly a nautiloid creature due to the shell on the back. It was an obvious change. I mentioned this prior.

Merrows are not mere mermaids, actually. According to folklore (and this is the most awesome thing about them), males look radically different from females, being grotesque and monstrous. And as I mentioned before, they look almost identical to a fairly well-known illustration of a merrow male. Also, it made little sense calling them Yuan-ti, as those are normal snake people, not vaguely fish-like things. There is also the problem of the wizards of the coast being quite sue-happy about some creatures (like illithids, for example) and less so with some they set in the public domain (gnolls, for example).
You can get what I mean by simply googling merrow or merrow male. Again, I am open to ideas but as nothing but d&d properties use the word “yuan-ti”, I am kind of scared of using it.

Edit: Oh crap!

If more people want the names returned to their formers, sure. So far I haven’t heard another complaint, but I am open minded if anything!

My names are merely there to avoid confusion from new players, which is also how I have tested them. As always, constructive criticism is most welcome and will be heard!

I did a bit of testing, and I think I can provide some feedback about creature strength, and the ways how I would adjust some statistics (adjust can be done in several ways, units can be adjusted to be offensive or defensive, in many cases I made choice based on current stats)

Generally many units in this town are very strong, with fairly high price. You can adjust units to be worth their price but keeping all units “fairly strong” results in town with too good units and if player can afford the gold then the town makes player able to get stronger army than the other.

About particular units:

level 1 not-upgraded: I would keep it as it is for now, maybe add +1 attack, seems to be average unit
level 1 upgraded: Not overpowered, but extremely strong. 2-4 damage, 8 hitpoints and high speed. I think I would increase the cost to 90 and keep it as it is or decrease damage to “2-3” and add +1 attack point. If you do not want it to be another pikeman-like unit you can keep downgrading stats and cost
Generally level 1 abyss units should not have base growth bigger than 14 with their strength and cost

level 2 not-upgraded: Seems to be ok cost and balance-wise. Similar unit to dwarves.
level 2 upgraded: Seems to be a bit too overpowered with their damage reduction, 18 hit points and 2-5 damage - most among all level 2 units. The most intuitive adjust seems to be damage downgrade to 2-4, this unit has already huge defensive capabilities. I would also increase the price to 165, because of the damage reduction ability, even though dwarves have 20 hit points and 1 more attack and defense point and they cost 150.
Growth seems to be good. 8-9 base growth is safe range for this unit.

level 3 not-upgraded: pretty expensive units, average hitpoints, high speed, rest of stats very strong. I would add -2 hitpoints, -1 attack and defense, -1 max damage to make this unit more “average”, unless you plan to nerf other units more.
level 3 upgraded: same as not upgraded, speed of serpent fly, stats of griffins (or whatever their name is). And I would do same as for not upgraded: get current creature stats and add -1 attack and defense, -1 max damage, -2 hitpoints
Growth looks ok.

level 4 (both levels): Generally this unit does not need changes I think, weaker stats than mages / archmages, but lower cost, and can shoot while enemy blocks unit.

level 5: Hard to say, stats are rather good. I would not decrease cost for this unit.
level 5 upgraded: Here comes the problem, this town has already many good units and this one together with seahorses looks like best candidates to leave not too strong. 70 hitpoints is huge amount, and rest of stats is pretty good too. I would keep hitpoints at 50, maybe 55, and maybe give additional +1 attack point and keep the cost as it is. The unit can already hit all nearby enemies.

level 6: This is interesting unit. 16-32 damage sounds like another “original” value good to beat new unit level stat records but this unit seems to be interesting when it stays strong. I would give -1 attack and defense point and change cost to 1050.
level 6 upgraded: I would give -1 attack and -2 defense and keep rest as it is. Can also give 25% shooting damage reduction and increase cost to 1400.

level 7: This unit has pretty weird balance in my opinion. It has same damage range as giant (also same average damage as angel), and 20 attack and defense, what seems to be unnecessary, this unit can be strong if adjusted down and whole town becomes less likely to be overpowered. I need to consider that unit is pretty slow, my personal preference would be to make this unit more attack-oriented I would give it 20 attack and 17 defense, 40-55 damage and keep rest as it is.
level 7 upgraded: Here comes unusual stat change: damage gets boosted over value of any other unit, hitpoints become very high, but attack and defense stay at poor value. If the unit cost is not meant to increase then I would make damage 45-55, 24 attack and 21 defense with keeping the rest as it is

Another things I noticed:
“Deep ones” fight value is way too high
unit buildings take too much wood
resource silo resource does not match 7th level creature building & upgrade resource

I am going to consider your balance tweaks Dydzio, those are really good! I would love to hear additional feedback from others, but these are ones I am definetly considering, and misiokles (the guy doing the real dirty work) seem to agree!

Deep One & Dark One will be rebalanced to tier3 eventually. I would want some ideas on what the stats & abilities should be.

I am considering changing “nautiloid” to “Kraken”, if anyone is with me on that one, as I found my original name perhaps scientifically correct but hardly interesting. I know most would probably consider a kraken tier 6-7, but ogres, gorgons and other big meanies have been tier 5 previously, so it wouldn’t be completely out of place. Furthermore, it would help cement the faction as being a bit more… fantastical.

Balance changes will be in the next version, for now enjoy the holidays and have an update!

Changes:
-Fixed Sea Urchins to tier3 population booster (as seemed to be the original intention)
-Fixed Dark & Deep One icons to have the neutral background
-Removed Sea Urchins from town screen before being built
-Additional minor fixes and tweaks

I changed the original post to be less about me talking about what I would like to do and what we are actually doing. A lot has changed since then.

I am reworking unit balance now. Here is what I’ve considered so far:

tier1: Untouched. Due to it being flying (did we patch that in at some point?) I found the stats to be fine.
tier1upg: Lowered damage to 2-3 and increased attack to 6.
tier2: Untouched.
tier2upg: Increased price to 165 and lowered damage to 2-4.
tier3: Nothing so far. I was a bit confused by the word “add” and then “-” before the stats. :wink:
tier3upg: Same as base unit.
tier4: Untouched.
tier4upg: Untouched.
tier5: Untouched.
tier5upg: Hitpoints decreased to 55. Attack increased to 13.
tier6: For now untouched, I would like some confirmation if you meant increasing or decreasing as you used “-” but used the word “give”, Dydzio! :stuck_out_tongue:
tier6upg: Same as base unit.
tier7: Damage lowered to 45-55. Defense lowered to 17.
tier7upg: Damage lowered to 45-55. Attack increased to 24.

Dark Ones and Deep Ones: Reworked to tier 3. Stats are experimental at this point, but should be fairly balanced. I am trying to keep the stats akin of most non-boss neutral units; being somewhere between a base and upgraded unit in stats.

I am fixing the graphical glitch regarding the Sea Urchin right now. I have fixed most of the issue and hopefully it will be fixed entirely in the next release.
The Sea Urchin has been a constant pain in the backside, akin of sitting on one. Hopefully we will be done with this grief soon enough!

I have asked friends what they thought about the nautiloid being changed to Kraken. The response has been a big fat “yes!” so I will go for it… for now!

I am going to work on sounds. As always, feeback is not just welcome, it’s OBLIGATORY! :stuck_out_tongue:

About changing tier 3 and tier 6 units I mean decreasing the stats from the current value of that particular unit - when I talk about upgraded unit I refer to upgraded unit stats. Anyway, looks like upgraded level 7 is still too weak though, when looking at the cost.

Right, I will get to it! I will wait for specifics before I touch tier7 again.

You can use PMs in case you want to discuss technical details, as those can easily clutter a thread.

Hopefully I can get my brother interested in helping with balance, as that is his thang, it’s just hard to get him invested in modding.

New update! Here are the main changes:

-Fixed some of the graphical glitch issues with Sea Urchins. Still needs work but it looks passable.
-Implemented Dydzio’s balance changes.
-Deep and Dark Ones rebalanced for tier 3. Still WiP but should be balanced okay.
-Krakens! Krakens!?